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Category: Religion

How I came to believe in God
Nov 6, 2008, 12:12a - Religion
Since the 6th grade, I've been a devout atheist. My rationale was pretty straightforward and certainly not unique. The world is such a fucked up place, that between the bad things that happen to good people and the good things that happen to bad people, even if there is a god, he can't be a good one. And if he ... more »

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Niniane - Nov 7, 2008, 11:41p
This was a very thought-provoking post. It also made me tempted to go to survival school, but I might just hate it the entire time.

My mother was very ill in 2004 (during the last months of Desktop, if you recall), and I remember thinking that if she got better, I would be satisfied with life. I wouldn't pine for more productivity or accomplishment or any other desires.

She did get better, and I was very content for a while. Then I started slipping, and now I'm discontent most of the time. :| I am going to visit a friend near Tibet, where he says the village is very Buddhist, so maybe I will reconnect with my contentedness there.

I really liked your post, Nikhil.

Laura - Nov 24, 2008, 2:10p
Nikhil,

Reading this post made me think of a book I read some 10 years ago.

" In search of the miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky.

you might like it.

:)

Laura - Nov 24, 2008, 2:31p
And by the way, being a technical recruiter I cannot but say that I am impressed with your professional background.

I happen to look for engineering talent for Microsoft Experimentation Platform in Seattle.

If it happens to be the right time for you to consider it, I will be happy to have a brief chat with you at your convenience.

Laura
530-692-9947
http://www.linkedin.com/in/laurafenn

Sanjay Mavinkurve - Mar 18, 2009, 9:06a
I'm really disappointed to read this post, Nikhil. It seems as though you've answered questions that seem unanswerable (and which may indeed be unanswerable) with God.

Sure, you are lucky to have been born during this time, but that good fortune doesn't mean that an omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God (or, for that matter, any God) exists.

It takes an incredible amount of strength and belief in awesomeness of the universe to say to oneself, "There are a heck of a lot of questions that I have no answers to, and that humankind may never find answers to, but until then, I accept that I simply don't know the answers." Let's not lose our inquisitive nature that loves to discover truths about our world and universe just because we're stumped by the awesomeness of it along the way. Let's not create mythical answers to the most difficult of questions because we're uncomfortable in not knowing. Let's instead embrace not knowing because it leaves wide open the door for future investigation and discovery.

Above all, though, let's not cast reason and evidence-based investigation as somehow existing on a lower plane to the somehow "enlightened" state that your 30 days left you in. You seem to suggest that reason is on a lower plane, a plane for the unenlightened.

I'm not sure how much after your 30-day experience you wrote this post, but I urge you to rethink all the reasons for which you have suspended reason.

Your last paragraph does console me, however. It seems like the "God" you now believe in is not really a "God" at all, according to how most people I know define it. You're using the term "God" in a poetic sense, almost in an Einsteinian sense. You're bottling up all the awe, wonder, love, and other powerful emotions that you experience as you contemplate your existence and the meaning of existence altogether and calling that "God." Which is fine, except that it's, well, extremely confusing for everyone.

Sanjay

nikhil - Apr 21, 2009, 6:13p
Sanjay!

Good to hear from you. I hope you're doing well, and thanks for the comment. Here's a response:

I think believing in God embraces not knowing just as much as not believing in God. Nor do I discount reason, as I use it incessantly on a daily basis. What I'm suggesting is that you should not be a slave to reason, a logic machine that accepts only those things arrived at by reason. Reason and logic are a closed, cold space, and while they work wonderfully as a tool, they aren't the only tool by which to act. The other tool, one that I often neglect, is the arational impulses and feelings that I often have. Some call it "trusting your gut", which is sort of what I mean.

One thing is clear to me. We can break knowledge down into 2 classes: the objective and the subjective. Science (and reason) provide knowledge in the objective domain. But let us not forget the second domain, the subjective. Even the very existence of the subjective domain (e.g. "feelings" via consiousness) has no space in the objective domain, and seems to be very much orthogonal to it. Yet it exists. It's existence is to me a testament to real, true knowledge or phenomena outside either the subjective and objective domains. I might call that the domain of God.

Maybe this is a clearer way to think about it: I have a strong subjective feeling of having a soul. I may have been taught it, or it may be "natural" - I can never know. What I do know is that I have this feeling, and I've denied it since the 6th grade. Why? Why not embrace my feeling, treat it as a truth, and see where that leads? Denial is not a good method by which to seak Truth.

I don't think my conception of God is Einsteinian, as you call it. I do believe that there is a higher power (whatever that might mean). I just don't think it's of the kind depicted by mainstream religions, or any organized religion that I've encountered. So this is not just the bottling up of awe.

I don't expect this to be very clear, and it is difficult to write about. So sorry about that - just trying to communicate what is inside me as clear as I know how. It's amazing that we're able to communicate such abstract ideas at all...

Ruggero - Sep 17, 2009, 12:47p
Personally, I find it pointless. I mean who gives a damn? God or no God, this is not an extremely important question at this point in time. Much better: intelligence or not intelligence? The emergence of intelligence from matter is the still a mistery. Science has been able to get the keys to life a few years ago and now time has come we do the same with thinking. I guess this might also help in case anyone - at that point - start to wonder about the existence of God. But for he time being, I suppose is still too early for that.

Ramu - Nov 13, 2011, 4:38a
Many therories on this earth to prove
that GOD'S existence....

IF U exists,,, then belive some one exists.........
Because u don't have the capacity to
create or destroy////U may do it with the material things....
U can't create,destroy or can't do anything....Some thing is there ....with which.......U can ......
i.e.GOD.....
Sceince is an experiment with the sense organs in the same way Philosophy is a science with the expectations and examinaitions.......

If u have to have any convincing answers,please feel free to contact me
ramu2277888@gmail.com

Sanjay Mavinkurve - Jan 18, 2018, 10:02a
Hi, Nikhil! Not sure if you still read these comments. But I'm back on this page almost 10 years after my first visit. I don't know what my equivalent of survival school is that caused me to change my outlook (maybe my children?), but what you're saying makes a lot more sense to me (you're right--it's hard to express).

Arrogant Atheists vs. Everyone Else
Apr 25, 2007, 12:52p - Religion
Exposure started in preschool, at age 3. By 2nd grade, at the blossoming age of 7, I was ready. After 4 years of daily religion classes and Wednesday chapel services, it was time to make my public commitment to Christ. With baptism, I could be like my friends, be with them in what they believed. One final hurdle remained: ... more »

Read comments (14) - Comment

Garry - Apr 25, 2007, 1:39p
Hey Nikhil -- great essay and insightful. Thanks for sharing your thoughts... I feel that I've undergone a similar transformation with respect to my understanding of faith. In high school I vividly remember being called a "devil" and that I was "going to Hell" according to the evangelicals in my English class, after delivering a short speech about atheism, agnosticism and deism. What I now realize is that there are truly misguided people who think they're doing the right thing... but really aren't. Likewise, the Harrises and Dawkins of the world.

Seema - Apr 25, 2007, 3:51p
I like the way you have put your thoughts ...i feel the same way about God ... Not completely an Atheist .. maybe agnostic . But I dont think your experiment will work .... Because people who are truly religious ..have FAITH in God and thats something that is beyond logical explanation ....

nikhil - Apr 25, 2007, 9:10p
Thanks for the comment Seema. I agree that faith is not acquired through rational thought, but I do think that it's a highly adaptive trait, in that faith may improve your state of mind. So, I think I could "pretend" to have faith for a month. It's like when you tell a lie and then start believing it - before you know it, it's really affected your worldview. Perhaps faith will do that for the positive...

omar - May 7, 2007, 10:36p
i never liked the idea of the "buck stopping here" as a reason to believe. sure, reduction in uncertainty is all well and good, but that seems a poor reason. the fact that the universe is this wonderful puzzle, with so many unknowns, including the unknown of me and my place, is a wonderful thing, imo.

as to my upbringing: we went to the mosque, and did religious things, but we were very culturally muslim. all my dad's side of the family. and my dad, puttering about with his glass of "tea" was always quite amusing.

i don't think i ever really believed, though all i'm sure about is that i didn't think about it very much.

Lindy Loya - Jul 17, 2007, 7:45p
If you are courageous enough... Ask Jesus, "If You are real, show yourself to me." Are you strong enough to let go of the worship of self and intellect? It's a huge huge liberating leap.... It's like agreeing to let go of caterpillar-hood and becoming a butterfly...

Have you spoken to Hugh Ross with Reason's To Believe? He's an interesting guy.

I'm talking about Jesus the person...not "belief in religion."

We'll see..

LLLL

Leggett - Sep 22, 2007, 10:14a
Thanks for so openly sharing Nikhil. I found your post really evoking. Some random thoughts on related topics...

I like to distinguish between religion and the church. I see the pure part of religion as the belief in something bigger than us to which we can surrender the pretense of control. Where as the church is the part of religion that is man's creation. And as man is not perfect, neither is the church. Still, I left Christianity because of things I didn't like about the church... because I didn't believe it was the only true religion.

So, to Seema's point, I think one can have faith, but just not have a name for it. At least that is how it is for me.

I don't believe that God has a plan for me. I've seen many not try to make their own plans b/c God already had plans. I think it is important to make plans and then watch them evolve and change as life happens. I'm not in control but I have a choice as to how I will respond to life in each moment. Those choices make a difference and in them I have a say in where I will go in this life.

I do believe God has an grand intention for us all. That we are designed such that at our very core is love (some would say this is Jesus living in our hearts). I think that love is there whether or not you call it Jesus.

I don't believe in an afterlife. I think there is plenty of reward in this life for being a good person and see an afterlife as the carrot man often dangles to persuade the masses. I think there is greater comfort to be found in being ok not knowing what will happen after death. To, once again, surrender to the unknown.

I believe there is a force greater than myself... a force that lives in me and you and connects us all. I believe this force is a positive force, but only has a hand in the unfolding of NOW by design, not divine intervention.

And I love discussing all these things. I don't think there is only one true or right way to say all these things we feel. I don't think there is only one true church. I'd rather pour myself into fighting fear and resentment than trying to convince people to change the face/name of their God to my own. I respect and want to learn from the different beliefs and traditions. And somehow, that feels right.

Bruce - Jul 4, 2008, 12:08p
Atheism, the arrogant belief that the universe - wasn't created for us.

Anyway, whether something is nice or not, whether it makes you feel good or not, doesn't influence whether it is actually true.

I would very much have liked a Druidic faith to be true - particularly if it was one that included fun parties at the solstice.

But in the end, the evidence just isn't there, it really does point away from the hypothesis presented by the various religions, and "meaning" if it is based on a lie, is empty.

Now you say that religion works when it comes to meaning. Well, that is a bit like people saying that belief in Santa Clause puts magic into children's lives - it might right up until you realise it is all bullshit.

And you can't stop yourself from realising it, it is something that creeps up on you and that you fight tooth and nail right up until you realise "This just isn't so."

And it isn't the presence of evil. That one can be explained by pointing out that most religions only take their gods' goodwill on the words of their gods, it isn't suffering or pain or any of that.

It is simply the lack of proof, the errors in the holy books, the things that were clearly made up and the history behind the holy books themselves. It is the behaviour of the most religious, whose fiery intensity fills graveyards, and their own back pockets.

Further, let us be honest here, where else in your life are you encouraged to take things on zero evidence? When being asked to give your banking details over the phone?

Stormbringer - Jul 24, 2008, 8:29a
I don't have time to respond to the comments, just to your main article. I have a Weblog posting at Stormbringer's Thunder called "The Arrogant Atheist". What I read here is something that I can appreciate and respect for your frankness and honesty. (Sure, I disagree with your position. Neither of us will lose sleep over that fact.) But you are *not* the AA. Thank you for being, well, real.

www.TheArrogantAtheist.com - Oct 23, 2008, 10:26p
If you're sincerely interested in an answer to the infinite loop of "Why?" without an appeal to the supernatural, read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.

nikhil - Nov 5, 2008, 8:05p
I've read that book (and Fountainhead), and I didn't find any answers to these types of questions there. All I found was more arrogance of the type I described above, the type that forsakes the rest of society for the sake of an elite few. I did like the books as epic stories, just not as moral ones.

Nani - May 20, 2009, 5:35a
Hi MR.Nikhil,

Are you still interested about "Why?" or in God?

If yes, I like to share a small time with you.

"True is True for ever". No matter if anybody believes or not.

Hope to talk you later.

barai.nani@gmail.com

nikhil - May 20, 2009, 7:28a
Hi Nani,

Thanks for the comment. In fact, my views have done a total 180 (have totally flipped) since I wrote this post. Specifically, I spent a month in the Utah desert doing a survival school (called Boulder Outdoor Survival School) in July 2007 (a few months after this was written). In the midst of my starvation and lack of pleasure, I realized that I was extremely lucky: lucky to be alive, lucky to have consciousness, and lucky to have such a comfortable life back home. I'm not sure why, but I came to the conclusion that this is far too lucky to happen by chance. Every time we got some food out there it sort of felt like a gift from God, and ever since I've started praying in thanks before every meal.

Of course, this isn't a solid argument for believing in God, but this experience created a strong foundation for this feeling, this belief, that I can't shake, and that I don't want to shake.

Anyway, that's where I am today. I wrote a bit in a more recent post here: http://nikhil.superfacts.org/archives/2008/11/why_i_believe_i.html

Now that I look back at the comments above, I realize my new view is very consistent with Leggett's view.

I'm happy to hear your thoughts on this.

I'm not sure what your background is, or what kind of life you've had up until this point, but as a coddled American, going to survival school was the best way I've found for answering "why". Afterwards, I had what I think people have called inner peace, which lasted several months. In retrospect, I was so happy just to be alive and to feel the intense pleasure of food that I had forgotten that I once sought happiness - I was so happy that I forgot the meaning of the search for happiness. That search was now meaningless. Unfortunately (perhaps), it pretty much wore off after being in society, I think because of the various social pressures that yanked me this way and that. But it really helped me get out of my head and heightened my awareness of the experience of life.

Louise - Dec 28, 2009, 5:13p
Nikhil, thank you for this thoughtful and open essay. I felt much the same way about God, evil, religion and so on as you describe, without going through the Christian phase first. I guess I was agnostic-verging-on-atheist. I wanted to believe in an afterlife but the basic version of the Old Testament God - anthropomorphic and cruel - stuck in my craw. Things changed for me when I met people who were, for want of a better term, Spiritualists. I've had experiences then which the Dawkinses of this world would dismiss as delusions, but which I am satisfied are very real (and it's not for want of questioning them!). I've got to a point where God is not a glorified human and certainly not actively involved in the world, causing miracles and the like. I don't think that sort of thing is necessary to believe in God, though my belief is more like deism, I guess. At any rate I hope you find whatever form of belief - in God, or not in God - that works for you, that brings your mind happiness and peace. Your point about religion (or faith, which isn't the same thing) working is a good one, something the more aggressive anti-religionists ignore. And surely it's what people do with their beliefs, ethics, worldview, that matters.

ramu - Nov 13, 2011, 4:28a
Hello,
I am ramu..I firmly beleve in god.
You may ask about th e existence of god?But have a deep look at your soul...A soul is definitely there....
How it is?
look at many people in this universe....from birth to death...
some will get gold spoon at their birth
and some will get nothing.....
Have a look at the disturbances in life...some will fall sick suddenly,
some will die in accidents unfotunately,
some will suddenly become rich after
a sudden ...Some will loose their entire progeny due to many reasons....
So, just think about yourself,,,,
You can't destroy the nature....You can't give life for the dead..You can't bring back the lost one....whether he may be any one rich or poor....or any ...

You may tell these above porpositons are natural discussed in science....
But I would like to have a question///

"Why ALL BAD OR GOOD THINGS SHOULD HAPPEN TO YOU"?

THis is due to KARMA of the previous birth...A life will take place according to ur KARMA says HINDHU PHILOSOPHY......Please realise this////

Read many Hindhu philosophy books..you will get back the details....

Finally IF "U " exists then " ALL EVERY THING EXISTS"....
If u are impotent ,,,,,definitely some one is "POTENT"...i.e.God........
Finally ,, ,,,,,Science is proved using all the theorems and principles....and u believe after the
experimentation is done.......
But a philosophy is proved when a person realises on his own expectations and examinations....
If U have any questions ,,,please mail me at ramu2277888@gmail.com

Jesus for a Million
Dec 28, 2006, 2:57a - Religion
When I was in 12th grade, I took a fascinating class called "History of Religion" taught by an excellent teacher, Ken Todd. I remember looking forward to that class for several years, and it proved worth the wait. I learned stuff there that I still think about today. For example, we spent a lot of time discussing how every known ... more »

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